tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post5210982799996895..comments2024-03-28T15:01:12.582+00:00Comments on The little white attic : The Portrait of a Lady: the characters and the author's sex Hai Di Nguyenhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02230670162621139739noreply@blogger.comBlogger13125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post-78596646976643514992015-11-08T10:27:59.115+00:002015-11-08T10:27:59.115+00:00Ah, that essay I've read. (I'm firmly on J...Ah, that essay I've read. (I'm firmly on Jane Austen's side). Hai Di Nguyenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230670162621139739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post-19377107627748300662015-11-06T14:32:17.483+00:002015-11-06T14:32:17.483+00:00Yes, that's the novel, Romola. A good comment...Yes, that's the novel, Romola. A good commentary. The major problem, and all in the group agreed, I remember now, was the massive historical detail. I did a fair amount of skimming, but I did finish it. Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post-29802255371102785012015-11-06T14:04:26.818+00:002015-11-06T14:04:26.818+00:00That's Romola, which I have not read. Rohan M...That's <i>Romola</i>, which I have not read. Rohan Maitzen has written a <a href="http://www.openlettersmonthly.com/macaroni-and-cheese/" rel="nofollow">good apology</a> for it.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post-20256525893465847572015-11-06T09:54:43.802+00:002015-11-06T09:54:43.802+00:00I don't know that one. Do you know which novel...I don't know that one. Do you know which novel that is, Tom?Hai Di Nguyenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230670162621139739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post-83687187465131623412015-11-04T00:40:12.432+00:002015-11-04T00:40:12.432+00:00Di,
Yes, I wasn't surprised when she went bac...Di,<br /><br />Yes, I wasn't surprised when she went back, disappointed, but not surprised.. <br /><br />There's also another Eliot novel (think it was her) that was set several centuries back. Her father was a scholar, and she marries his assistant? It turned out badly and she had actually packed her bags and left him. She meets a priest? on the road, and he persuades her that it was her duty and her obligation to stay with her husband, regardless of how bad he was. She also went back, but she surprised me when she did. <br /><br />At least that's what I remember. I may be confusing it with another novel.<br />Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post-70509209514983230592015-11-04T00:32:48.448+00:002015-11-04T00:32:48.448+00:00Yes, Isabel returns to Osmond in order to engage i...Yes, Isabel returns to Osmond in order to engage in open warfare over Pansy.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post-66569030920872551432015-11-04T00:22:04.529+00:002015-11-04T00:22:04.529+00:00Fred and Tom,
Oh that. Right. Indeed. *thinking* ...Fred and Tom, <br />Oh that. Right. Indeed. *thinking* <br />That means both of you think Isabel would return to Osmond in the end?<br />I noticed that part too, Fred, she didn't talk much about love. She's theoretical, like Dorothea. <br />George Levine has a very interesting essay comparing Isabel to Dorothea and Gwendolen. Hai Di Nguyenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230670162621139739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post-1090431860523718622015-11-02T15:16:39.608+00:002015-11-02T15:16:39.608+00:00There's also the theme of the female helpmeet ...There's also the theme of the female helpmeet from Genesis--It is not good that Man should be alone, I will make him a helpmeet for him." Isabel spends more time talking about how she and her money can be helpful to Osmond than she does about her love for him. In a way, she reminds me of another similar pairing in literature:<br /><br />Dorothea and Casauban<br /><br />Isabel and OsmondFredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post-15569816839380340242015-11-02T05:19:49.591+00:002015-11-02T05:19:49.591+00:00Or even the unhappiness she desires, as strange as...Or even the unhappiness she desires, as strange as that sounds. Maybe she prefers the struggle. Warburton would give no opportunity for heroics.<br /><br />I think I'm thinking more broadly than physical description when I think about the lifelikeness of Isabel and other characters - speech, action, psychology. The usual stuff. The difference may be that in this post - I know you have moved on - that you are comparing James to Tolstoy or Austen, the best, and I am thinking about where he goes on the entire continuum of literature. So in terms of real, living characters, James is way up near the top.<br /><br />Lots of great literature is built out of unreal, unnatural characters. Nothing necessarily wrong with that. Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post-47720749951058405622015-11-02T03:20:29.434+00:002015-11-02T03:20:29.434+00:00Di,
I think it's more than that.
"Somet...Di,<br /><br />I think it's more than that.<br /><br />"Sometimes she went so far as to wish that she might find herself some day in a difficult position, so that she should have the pleasure of being as heroic as the occasion demanded." (Vol. 1, Chapter VI)<br /><br />"'I can't escape unhappiness,' said Isabel. "In marrying you I shall be trying to."<br />Isabel to Lord Warburton (Vol. 1, Chapter XIV) <br /><br />Later, there are several incidents in which she seems happy that her friends and relatives disapprove of her marrying Osmond because this gives her an opportunity to show how strong she is, that she makes her own decisions without regard for what others may think, "of being as heroic as the occasion demanded." <br /><br />Her comment to Lord Warburton is very enlightening, for she says she can't escape unhappiness and in marrying him she would be trying to escape unhappiness and she doesn't want to do that. Why?<br /><br />That seems to something like a martyr's complex to me and explains why she marries Osmond--deep down she realizes this marriage will be the unhappiness she is expecting. The Beast in the Jungle? perhapsFredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post-79652222122258628032015-11-02T00:30:52.676+00:002015-11-02T00:30:52.676+00:00Fred,
That's interesting. I was thinking: Isa...Fred, <br />That's interesting. I was thinking: Isabel gets lots of money and thinks "this doesn't belong to me, and shouldn't be, I have to spend on something important, have to give it to someone else". <br /><br />Tom, <br />I wasn't only thinking of physical descriptions though. <br />I haven't seen the Jane Campion film. Have to look for it.Hai Di Nguyenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02230670162621139739noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post-91430754822134568422015-10-27T19:02:32.228+00:002015-10-27T19:02:32.228+00:00Fred is on to something there.
I find Isabel reas...Fred is on to something there.<br /><br />I find Isabel reasonably well-defined and real. True Jamesians seem to go a lot farther than that. They have perhaps read the novel more deeply than I have.<br /><br />It is certainly hard to <i>see</i> Isabel, or any James character, setting, object, landscape, etc. Not his thing. I was almost shocked when after two or three hundred pages James mentions Isabel's "thick, dark braids" - I had not included those in my picture of her.<br /><br />But of course Anna Karenina is only barely described, too. Just the essentials.<br /><br />In general, James characters seem real enough to me within their odd James-world. Their speech is mannered, their surroundings almost bizarre - an Italy with no Italians, the wealthy obsessed not about money or work but their collections. Odd. But given the constraint of the fantasy world, real enough.<br /><br />I like this sentence a lot: "Because she vibrates only because of James's anxious concern for her?" That could lead in some interesting directions.<br /><br />Jane Campion plays up the sexual angle in her film. There is no doubt that Isabel is sexually attracted to Osmond, and that sickly Touchett and dull Goodwood do nothing for her. I don't remember Warburton at all. How much of this is in the novel? I don't know.Amateur Reader (Tom)https://www.blogger.com/profile/13675275555757408496noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3901980733463068698.post-16549213573455157842015-10-27T00:08:25.526+00:002015-10-27T00:08:25.526+00:00Di,
Suppose Isabel had a martyr complex. She del...Di,<br /><br />Suppose Isabel had a martyr complex. She deliberately makes bad choices because she believes that's her destiny. Would you see her any differently?Fredhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10233846613173866140noreply@blogger.com